Super Power

>> Steve: Welcome to fusion.

>> Anouk: Talk with anouk and steve. So do you feel like you're missing out?

>> Steve: Yes.

>> Anouk: All those wonderful pictures of our friends and colleagues.

>> Steve: Yes. And all of those messages of people that are there getting on WhatsApp and.

>> Anouk: Yeah, yeah. Um, started for me when Kevin, who was in Seattle a bit earlier, Moraine was on the plane and he was already messaging, so he'd connected to the WI fi on the plane, so he was staying in touch with everybody. And then Kevin said, so when are you two guys arriving? And of course Moraine said, oh, no, Steve's not coming. Uh, am I gonna regret this? And it was kind of wish I'd kind of gone, but also made the decision. Standing by the decision.

>> Steve: Yes, so do I. Did you already watch something of it?

>> Anouk: No, not yet. I tend not to. I will. I will download any of the press releases or things that will come from it. I know there won't be press releases as such because a lot of it is unpen. But I'll, uh, look at some of the things that are there and then decide y. What I'll do is actually say to Moraine, okay, what should I follow up on? So I don't know. I. I wonder how many. Here's an interesting question. I think we'll hear from other MVPs when we meet them and talk to them over the coming weeks around stuff.

>> Steve: Yes.

>> Anouk: And that's what will really happen. And we've got some sessions coming ahead, but. Yes. Do I wish I was in Seattle? I always wish I was somewhere else anyway. Because if I'm here, I'm just doing normal working stuff. So there. Seattle would have been just another holiday. But, you know, don't, uh. Know. Good question.

>> Steve: It's a little bit feeling of missing out, but by the other end, um, you can't always travel.

>> Anouk: No, I think not. I think that. Anyway, uh, I made the call and you, uh, seem to find it sort of think it was a good idea as well. So.

>> Steve: Yeah.

>> Anouk: But next year we are going back next year we're gonna.

>> Steve: If we are still an mvp, of course.

>> Anouk: Oh, yeah, that's true. That does have to go through that is the process. If you don't know what we're talking about, guys, of course it's, uh, there's the MVP conference summit is happening this point in, uh, uh, in sunny Seattle. Um, and so all of.

>> Steve: Not that sunny. It's raining there.

>> Anouk: But is it. Yeah, I think it's. It's got the highest rainfall anywhere else in the US Mainland. US can be. Yeah. All Right. So I came up with a suggestion that you went, I don't know what that means. Anyway, so I'm just gonna.

>> Steve: You came up with a suggestion and I said, let's go for it. We will see how it works out.

>> Anouk: But you didn't know what the suggestion was till I reread it to you about 10 minutes ago. So I wrote in as a, as a suggestion, what's your superpower? So, as a team lead or a consultant, what skills have we discovered over our career? What we've successfully identified are something we do well and use regularly and which are in play, uh, and which ones do we want to develop? So we all grow as individuals, we all improve. And if we don't improve, you, what the hell is life's about? You know, sort of. It's really part of growing, especially from a career perspective. And a lot of what we do, whether it's team leading, which I do mostly, um, or whether it's working with consultants that you don't know, this team work involved. But we're also encouraging collaboration. We're also including incorporating ways to move things forward. And there's some tricks and tips we use that, um, you know, help us get there quicker or some things we know we're not so good at.

>> Steve: Yes.

>> Anouk: Um, so that's what I mean by, you know, skills really, or by superpowers. So, um, so, you know, it's your interview question, so thank you for attending this interview for, uh, lead programme developer. So, so what is your, uh, what is your skill set? What is it that you bring to the table that make you most suitable?

>> Steve: Those questions are always the hardest ones to answer.

>> Anouk: Why?

>> Steve: For me, they are just, um. I don't want to put myself in the spotlight that much, but I do know you don't need to look like me like that.

>> Anouk: Yeah, but you're in an interview. The whole point of the interview is to put you in the spotlight.

>> Steve: I know, I know. Um, but from nature, I don't like to do that. So that's why these questions for me are the hardest to answer. But if I need to, depending on the role you are going for. But.

>> Anouk: Well, ignore the interview. I mean, I just put that into context. But what skills do you bring to your job that makes you good at your job?

>> Steve: Um, I think from myself that I'm getting better and better in translating business needs to technical needs to understand what or to get information from the business and to know what's technically possible or not.

>> Anouk: Okay. Superpower number one, understanding business.

>> Steve: Yes. And translate it to technical things, because it's the main thing. What we see is that it and business are talking next to each other.

>> Anouk: Are they? A lot of times I think it's very rare that business and it talk together at all. No, no. No laughing matter. No, I seriously think it is.

>> Steve: Yeah. And when they talk, they are talking next to each other. So they need to have somebody able to understand what business wants, but also know what it can do.

>> Anouk: Uh, okay. And that's something that you think you're good at?

>> Steve: Yes.

>> Anouk: All right, cool. So when have you last used that? Give me an example of. Of that super skill and when it made you look like a rock star.

>> Steve: Um, actually, I was brainstorming about something yesterday.

>> Anouk: I knew you were going to bring that one up.

>> Steve: So I had a conversation with it, uh, with business to understand what they want, where they want to go to, and what their requirements were. Um, it had an in mind that this is a solution that we need to use. And then I wrote it down in an image for myself and I said, that solution can't work because then this, this, this, and this requirement of business will not be set up. So, um, I'm now talking again with it and explaining them why it won't work and what would be a better solution.

>> Anouk: Interesting. Do you think your super skill will ever be taken over by AI?

>> Steve: Probably.

>> Anouk: Very likely.

>> Steve: In fact, very likely. Yeah.

>> Anouk: Maybe that's another app we should build. How? I once. I once had a book. I once read a book. Um, uh, I did once read a book. I've read more than one book, but it sounded like I've only read one book, but, yeah, I wouldn't try.

>> Steve: You only read one book and the rest are audiobooks?

>> Anouk: Yes. How to manage your manager. Uh, maybe there's a new book there that says how to manage it in the age of AI because from a business perspective, you could say, hey, look, I need to be able to, um, take this information and collate it this way, uh, and see it displayed here and also communicated to here and here and here. Um, turn that into a requirement that I can just give to it.

>> Steve: Yeah.

>> Anouk: So, yes, that's a super skill that you won't be so super soon then.

>> Steve: No, I'm guessing I, AI will take over a part of it. But then again, um, to understand the business needs of. To understand the business needs, there will be a human person involved because you need to talk with the different kind of people.

>> Anouk: Maybe be interesting. I mean, because we know that there's a lot of opportunity for saving at the back end of it when you actually start creating and generating and that kind of stuff. But there are ways of saving in the front end.

>> Steve: Yep.

>> Anouk: So, okay, so one super. But that's not the only thing you're good at. You can't be a consultant walking in and out of businesses and projects and delivering stuff by only knowing how to translate from business to it.

>> Steve: No, of course not. Well, so you need to understand what you are doing.

>> Anouk: Gotta understand shit. I understand what you're saying, but only I can turn that into what you need. Yeah, no, it's this invalid. It's quite valid. It's true. So what about, um, if it comes to dealing with M. That's interesting. The numbers have stopped turning over on the, uh, on the recorder.

>> Steve: So you need to go and cheque.

>> Anouk: And while I've gone away, you can find out what you think my super skill is.

>> Steve: Oh, I need to find out your super skill because you're not able to answer it yourself.

>> Anouk: Correct.

>> Steve: That's not fair. But okay, well, um, I think your super skill is with managing your team. You have an amazing team that is, uh, very good in what they are doing. They are having their own controls and you guide them that they are having their own responsibility. So when they are having issues, they will come to you, but they try to fix them first on their own.

>> Anouk: Yeah, I think that's true. I, I think, um, Yeah, I think team lead is one of those things that I am very good at. And creating teams, no doubt about that, gaining their respect, gaining their trust. Um, and, uh, I very rarely lose a member of a team. Very rarely do they move on and do something else. So I am very good at doing that. Um, and, uh, had a conversation this morning about, uh, remunerations and obviously we don't want the team to go shopping around, looking for other jobs and that kind of stuff. So that is a balance. But I think people are more interested as long as they can afford their bread and butter, um, to go on holiday every year and all that kind of stuff, then they're fine. Uh, but then it's down to making sure they're challenged and that kind of stuff. So, yeah, I do have a bit of a superpower with, with that kind of stuff, but I, I equally don't have as good a superpower with customers and the business, uh, because I come across, my ego kicks in a little bit and really? Yeah, I don't know where it comes from. It very rarely comes out anywhere else. Um, yeah, I kind of, uh, I don't suffer Fools, gladly, as an English term. You know, so there are some downsides. But yes, no, I have had some great teams over the years. Um, and uh, I think that is a lot down to being able to read people very well, understand what they need, um, be able to give them a good bollocking without actually making them realise that they've done wrong and how could we do it better? Um, and yes, I think I am quite good at that.

>> Steve: Yeah. So I answered your super skills for you. So what would you say about me?

>> Anouk: Your super skills?

>> Steve: See, it's not easy.

>> Anouk: I'm trying to work out which one I want to use first. Actually, I can go to at least six. Um, uh, where would I go with? Uh, I think you're actually a little two faced. You're very two faced now, uh, you don't even think that's a skill, do you? So you can say one thing to the customer, but actually you're getting annoyed about something else. But what you're able to do is filter from one to another. So the real problem is if you want to be good customer facing people, you're always nice to them, you're always doing what you need to do, you're always making, making them feel good. Yeah, okay, but they make stupid decisions. We know that end users and customers, they, they kind of, they live in a different kind of fantasy world about what you can and can't do for them or what they think they need. Uh, and I've, I've seen you read an email from somebody and go, all right, and then that, not frustration, but that lack of understanding at that point of reading it is what drives you to get to the right solution. And when you're talking to your customers, you're kind of doing the right thing with the customers. Uh, it's a skill that a salesperson has. They can go, freaking stupid idea. That is. But as soon as they work out what it's going to be, they'll sit there and talk to customers and get there. Whereas me, I'm very transparent to everybody. So even if I don't agree with something with somebody, I will tell them, all right? But then as I start, as they start to challenge back, I then start to understand it and then I can start to process it and then I will go, you know, actually I was wrong, you were right. I get where you're coming from and I see some value in that.

>> Steve: I don't.

>> Anouk: Whereas you tend to be.

>> Steve: Yeah, but I don't want to name it like you name it then.

>> Anouk: No, uh, I Know, two face is a bit harsh.

>> Steve: I would say, uh, better. And being challenged and challenging back to get a correct understanding.

>> Anouk: Uh, maybe, maybe. But you do get frustrated when they say something of course, silly or when they ignore what you're telling them to do.

>> Steve: I was frustrated this morning. They know that I'm not available on, on a specific day and they always plan meetings on that day and I decline them.

>> Anouk: Um, yes. Oh, well, there you go. But it's only one of your skills, really. I mean, you also are able to do what I can do, which is you do big picture thinking. So when, you know, when somebody's saying, hey, I don't want to be able to do this, you're already working out where that fits into the context of the whole project. And that is another skill that I'm able to take from end to end. It's really interesting when you find a blue person though, and you've got that bigger thinking and they are thinking about this specific thing and that specific thing and that specific thing and you're kind of already thinking about the end to end process and where that is going to do. Uh, because you're not ready yet to start thinking about those small, individual things. Um, so, uh, but yeah, so big picture thinking is cool. So what superpower would you want to have?

>> Steve: Ooh, what do I want to have next to what I already have now?

>> Anouk: Let me ask, let me rephrase that. What superpower do you need that you don't have?

>> Steve: Then? I would say, uh, more leading, more leading skills, Leading people more in better directions. And

>> Anouk: yeah,

>> Steve: for me, I made myself up that I want to go into the management role.

>> Anouk: Sometimes it will be perfect for you.

>> Steve: Um, but for the moment in time, I don't have those skills for managing or leading or anything else. So I really would like to start building up those skills to understand it better and to be able to go in that kind of role.

>> Anouk: You already need to have those skills in some respects. Um, and I'm sure you actually do, you probably just don't realise it because you have ways of talking to customers, ah, in a really nice process way. Um, and then helping, uh, them understand what they need to do next and what they need to change. And you very good at doing that.

>> Steve: Yeah.

>> Anouk: And that in some respects is where team leads for you. Get to a level where you end up on their level and understand them. That's where you really go. Uh, and you know, you know that you're going to piss somebody off before you open your mouth. So you're Already aware of what they're going to think about something and that then allows you to deliver that bad piece of news in a way that they understand and accept. So, like today I had an instance where, um, uh, somebody wanted to get something done and they went about it a little bit without thinking the bigger picture. So, hey, I need to do this and this and this. And so they came back with a quote for 10k to do that. Whereas, uh, if with a different kind of approach, a more human approach about how we were going to work together to do this and about how we were going to do that, it wasn't just a request for work, it was a request for being together and doing that. And then, you know, and that. That's something that comes along with, with age and how you get stuff done. Especially when it comes to contracts and negotiations. So. So, yeah, something else I think I'm quite good at as well. You are people manipulation. I mean, sorry, contract negotiation.

>> Steve: You are, I've heard you sometimes when you are talking to one of your contract or people you want to deal with. So you are very good in telling them what you want and what the maximum prices you want to give for them without even telling an exact price but saying that's not where I want to go to. And uh, you get most of the time what you want.

>> Anouk: You have to give them the reasons for landing somewhere. But you already do that as well, but you probably don't even realise it. So I was told the same thing. I will never be a salesperson. And I won't be a salesperson, by the way, because I find tales really, really, really boring. But I do have the skills, but I just don't use them the same way or add to as you have

>> Steve: the skills because you had your own company, you needed to sell your own yourself and get the projects and the work, uh, coming in. It's the same for me. So you are. We are developing those skills, but we will never use them completely like a salesperson.

>> Anouk: Not in a pipeline.

>> Steve: We will have some basic understanding of them. Otherwise we can't run our businesses.

>> Anouk: Yeah, I agree. I think that is, uh, part of the process. But that's how you kind of pick those skills up, isn't it? You, I mean, you never have the skill and say, I've now got it, I don't need to do anymore.

>> Steve: True.

>> Anouk: It's always going to be, um, developed, changed, redirected.

>> Steve: Yeah.

>> Anouk: Um, and that I think is, is a skill in its own right, uh, is actually knowing when to use a superpower and when not to use a superpower.

>> Steve: Yep.

>> Anouk: The amount of times that I see people around me and they use their ears and mouth in the wrong ratio, uh, they speak twice as much time as they spend listening.

>> Steve: Yes.

>> Anouk: Um, and so that's one of the skills you end up learning if you kind of really want to be a team lead and everything.

>> Steve: Yeah. And I also think, um, one of the skills you have is you listen to your team and then you take a few seconds before replying.

>> Anouk: Yeah, that's because I used to be an emotional character and, uh, uh, I learned the hard way.

>> Steve: Yeah, but it's something that is good in everything you do.

>> Anouk: Yeah, maybe. Thank you. I do try and do that. I don't always. If I really am frustrated by something, I don't give myself time to think. Um, but I don't regret it very often.

>> Steve: It's a good thing.

>> Anouk: So, uh, we talk about skills for you. What about, uh, your ability to communicate in an organised way is also quite strong. I have no organisation skills at all. I don't work that way. I tend to work by instinct. Whereas you, on the other hand, are very good at being able to put things in a logical order when you approach things.

>> Steve: Yes, that's something I learned when I was at school. Most of the developers have that. The logical way of going through things and yes, not something that's coming from there, but I used it through everything that I'm doing. So I learned it with development, but I learned myself to go through some kind of steps to do it in everything else that I'm doing.

>> Anouk: So I have no organisational skills because I'm not a developer, then.

>> Steve: I'm not saying you are just chaotic. And, uh, that's fine as well because that works for you. Everybody's different.

>> Anouk: Chaotic. I'm just chaotic.

>> Steve: You are.

>> Anouk: Okay, I can live with chaos. If I look at my desk every day, I have no choice but to live with chaos.

>> Steve: You do have a choice, but not let's go there.

>> Anouk: Let's go there. Uh, I suppose there's something valid in that. Yeah, I did kind of set myself the target and just go there and I don't care what the collateral. What the fallout is on the way.

>> Steve: True.

>> Anouk: So, um, but anyway, that's a skill. All right. What is your anti superpower? What is the shit that you're really bad at? Not many people think about this. It's interesting. No, we think about what we might want to get better at, but actually, what am I just not good at? I mean, like, for Me? We already talked about chaos. So the opposite to that, of course, um, is that I cannot put things in a logical order. Well, actually, it's not really true because when you do big picture thinking, you tend to know what the steps are. The big steps are. But like, timelines. I just don't do timelines. So, yes, I end up double booking myself now and again, and I can't do. What are you doing Sunday afternoon? No idea. So. So that's one thing. Would I like to change? That's a really good question. Yeah, uh, maybe.

>> Steve: Too late for changing.

>> Anouk: Uh, too old to change? Is that what he's saying?

>> Steve: I didn't say too old. I said too late.

>> Anouk: All right, well, obviously you don't want to get depressed by saying the things that you think, uh, you're really bad at, so let's.

>> Steve: No, no, I. I don't know what I am going to say. What is.

>> Anouk: What is the real person's head?

>> Steve: What's the really thing that I'm very bad at? Um, I'm not good in everything that I know, but really bad at. I can't.

>> Anouk: Is there anything that you just can't do? You've tried it and every time it kind of fails?

>> Steve: No, because I try. I force myself for the next time to be better in it.

>> Anouk: What about ego? Maybe the fact you can't answer that question is probably ego, Maybe.

>> Steve: No, because I can't figure out what it would be.

>> Anouk: I. I honestly think it's. It is a, uh, it is an age thing in some respects. So I think as you kind of mature in life, see how the subtlety was there instead of saying getting old.

>> Steve: I didn't say getting.

>> Anouk: No, no, I know. I just said the words. But as you mature in life, then I think you start to accept that I'm just not there and don't worry about it anymore. But when you're younger, you just go, well, I don't even know. When I'm not there, I do anything. I can do anything. I can try anything. Some people can't. I mean those. Again, people that are very focused on certain things will never be creative without forcing themselves to be creative. They won't be naturally creative. They won't have natural innovation. They'll have considered innovation, and then once they've thought about it, they can't change. They're bad at pivoting and switching from one to another.

>> Steve: Yeah.

>> Anouk: So, well, go, um, on.

>> Steve: My writing skills are horrible. That I know, but.

>> Anouk: That's true, actually. No, I don't mean it's true with you. But one of the biggest frustrations I find is I'm sitting there on a whiteboard and I'm instructed in and spent 20 years as an instructor. But my handwriting really gets bad after about five minutes of writing on flip charts and wall boards. It's terrible and I don't know why. I think it's because I stopped focusing on it because I know what I want to write. So why do I need to put the words on here? I'm really bad at that. This is very true.

>> Steve: My writing is horrible as well. So.

>> Anouk: But does that not mean that you make an effort by, for example, writing in capital letters when you write stuff on a whiteboard or if you're explaining something because that tends to slow you down and then you can write it neater.

>> Steve: Yes, but in the age of this time they're all digital whiteboards. So you connect to your uh, tablet or something and then you can just type and you don't need to write anymore.

>> Anouk: That is there. You got a solution for it. That is, that is very, very true. No, I get that. So let's think about roles for a minute or two then to think about skill sets. Because one of the things that we're looking at the moment is RBAC from a security perspective and role based stuff and things like this. So as a role there are obviously certain skills you need and certain skills that you can aim, uh, towards or work towards. So let's talk about collaboration. Uh, what skills does a person need to be a good collaborator in a business collaboration framework?

>> Steve: Accepting the input from another person.

>> Anouk: So being open to ideas from other people. Yep, yep, I can live with that.

>> Steve: Uh, have an open mind when going to discussions and not being focused on your way of working.

>> Anouk: Isn't that what you said the first time?

>> Steve: Um, no, they are two different things.

>> Anouk: Why?

>> Steve: Because you have, you can have an idea of a person that is telling it and you can go and discuss about all of the ideas, but then only focus on your opinion.

>> Anouk: Okay. Even, yeah, that's okay. That's just bullshit management. So you say, yes, of course, I'm listening to you, but let's just do what I said anyway.

>> Steve: Yeah, but it's not management, it's collaborating with people. It's working together.

>> Anouk: Yeah, uh, I know some people that are really excellent at that. It's only half an hour later you think, just a minute. None of our ideas got in there. It's only is. But they were so good at being able to, uh. Yeah, I never did it, but that's okay, so I like the idea of being open to, um, to people that is, it is important. No, um, doubt about that. I think also you have to be, um, not frightened of suggesting ideas or improvements or ways forward. You can't hold anything back. You know, if you walk out of a meeting, you think, damn, I wish I put my idea forward. Then you failed. Um, and so I think having the confidence on your own thinking is important. And there are a lot of people that don't have confidence in their thinking. So yesterday we should have had a guest today, but their confidence in going onto a podcast is something they would never even think of doing. But we had some great conversations with this person yesterday. Um, and so I think some people also kind of need to do that. Um, but kind of work out what we can and what works and what doesn't. So that's equally important. Um, regret is something you should never have. Of course. Hey, I can either. I can't change something, so I shouldn't regret it. So make those decisions. So from a collaboration perspective, if you're in a brainstorming meeting and you don't put your idea forward.

>> Steve: Any idea.

>> Anouk: Yeah.

>> Steve: You don't give your opinion on anything. So.

>> Anouk: Yeah. Missed opportunities.

>> Steve: Yep.

>> Anouk: Um, all right, what about team leads, then? You said, I make a good team leader, but what. What kind of attributes make bad team leaders?

>> Steve: Not being able to read people.

>> Anouk: Yep.

>> Steve: Not listening to people.

>> Anouk: Yep. Um, is not being able to read people a real blocker, or can you work around it? If you don't know what somebody's thinking, do you just go, oh, shit, what are they thinking?

>> Steve: Um, I'm, um, not sure it's a real blocker, but it will give you, in my opinion, will give you issues. Because if you're working in an office environment and your colleague or your team member is sitting there and you see that he is stressed or, uh, distracted or anything else, just start a little conversation about how you can help, what can improve.

>> Anouk: So, yeah, I think that's exactly right. That's where I was going as well.

>> Steve: And it's reading people. Okay. You don't need to know what they are thinking, but you see that there's something wrong, then just go and have a little conversation.

>> Anouk: Yes. And I think, um, choosing those right words are important.

>> Steve: Yeah.

>> Anouk: So. So that's good. Face to face. Because body language, 80% of what you say is in your movements and your facial expressions. How do you do that when you're on the telephone? Now, that is a skill, something I'd learned many, many Years ago, in the days before teams and Zoom. I know you've never lived without teams in zoom.

>> Steve: I did.

>> Anouk: Not for long, though. No, no.

>> Steve: We started with some chats online.

>> Anouk: Ah, okay. But when the only medium was telephone. You really do learn to hear people's emotional state in their voice. It's strange. I mean, don't ask me why I know, but I do. Um, and, uh, it's an advantage and a disadvantage. But you do. Maybe my brain is AI. It can pick sentiment up out of words.

>> Steve: The ego is kicking in now,

>> Anouk: maybe. Maybe there's a bit too much truth in that statement, so I think it's time to move on. But it is, uh, a skill. I'm generally able to identify on the telephone whether somebody is attuned to where you're going or what they're saying.

>> Steve: Yeah.

>> Anouk: Uh, but I think, uh, again, it comes with the fact that not many people actually phone anybody. Anybody else.

>> Steve: True.

>> Anouk: So maybe it's a skill that's now not used anymore. Not needed.

>> Steve: It's still needed.

>> Anouk: Okay.

>> Steve: Even when you are in a team skull and you don't have a mic or you don't have a camera.

>> Anouk: Yeah.

>> Steve: You still need to know. And so you can't force people to put a camera on all the time.

>> Anouk: Yeah. All right, then, um. Good. Good. All right, final questions then.

>> Steve: I have one more bad skill for a team leader.

>> Anouk: Okay.

>> Steve: Not knowing what a team member is good in. If you like your team by example, you have, you manage the infrastructure, so you have people very good in all of the infra site and in the infrastructure. So you don't need to put a, um, power platform specialist in that team. So not knowing the skills of your team is making sure that they are not on the right place.

>> Anouk: I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, because there seem to be a lot of double negatives in there, but I think that's what you're meaning was understanding the skill levels.

>> Steve: Yes.

>> Anouk: But I'm going to add on that I don't think it's just about understanding the skill levels. It's understanding their capabilities because they need to grow.

>> Steve: Yep.

>> Anouk: So, you know, actually saying, hey, I need you to do this and this and this and this, and they go, but I've never done that before. No, but I believe you can do it. And if you get stuck, give me a shout. We'll work it through and we'll. We'll take the steps, but identify a way forward. Uh, I agree. That's good. It is a very cool one. I think people often don't know and, um, uh, what they're capable of themselves.

>> Steve: So, yeah.

>> Anouk: Being able to sort of pull that out. Right. I said I'd got a last question and then you put me off and now I can't remember what it was. Um. Damn. It was going to be a great last question.

>> Steve: I'm sorry.

>> Anouk: No, uh, no, it's okay. This is my chaotic head again. They're getting a live example of. Of how my brain does and does not work. Um, so let's start off with one or two other things in terms of team leading. So in terms of reading people. We all read people whether we like it or not. Uh, what is the position it comes to when you see somebody is not capable of doing what they think they're doing? Do you. Knowing whether you step in and do it for them or knowing whether you work with them to actually get them improved depends on the culture of the organisation you're in. So what happens when your skill sets clash with the culture of the company? What kind of problems ends up coming forward then? Because it's a key one, isn't it? Uh, especially as a consultant, where you walk into an organisation and you expect A. And actually you. You get C. Yeah. And then your skill sets are not going to have any value.

>> Steve: Um, do you adapt to the culture or do you stay with your skill sets? That's the most important question. Um, as a consultant, I will answer it in that matter because I know I've been in that situation. Situation. Um, I adapt myself to the culture because it was just a short

>> Anouk: project.

>> Steve: Uh, so I adapted and I, uh, changed everything that was needed.

>> Anouk: Yeah.

>> Steve: And I did the work and that was over and done with. Afterwards, they asked me again for a project. I said no, because that was going to be a very long, large project. And I said, last, uh, time it didn't work because this and this and this. Um, if there is nothing changed in the company, it will not work to work together for more than a year.

>> Anouk: Oh, so you put a time on it. That is an interesting question. Do you also think you're not as good as you could be if you can't attune yourself to the way that an organisation works? So you get to a point where something changes around you and it works in a different way and you can't be efficient? So do you then leave or at least refuse to move forward with some stuff in the future? Do you think that's the natural and only way forward, or should we learn to pivot more?

>> Steve: I think you should be able to express how you feel and talk about it.

>> Anouk: Yeah, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you, there's anything going to change.

>> Steve: No, true.

>> Anouk: It won't change. So it's a little bit like when you interview for a job that you really want to, but when you get there, you find the company is not going to be, not going to allow you to be the person you want to be. You then choose whether to take the job and change or not take the job at all. Because I think it's difficult, it's difficult to turn off a, uh, superpower.

>> Steve: Yep.

>> Anouk: And you end up wanting to take everybody else with you.

>> Steve: True.

>> Anouk: So I told you I can't. I don't suffer fools gladly. Um, and this is not meant in any way to be, um, uh, uh, inappropriate. I don't know about the right word is here. It's not coming in my brain. But I once worked for an all woman company. Um, and it was so freaking frustrating. Unbelievable. So I was taken on their board. Um, as an IT director. No, as a, um. Oh, what was my role there? Ah, very good question. Resources director. Not HR from an HR perspective, but more, uh, a workload and everything else. But it became apparent they didn't even have a board. There was no senior management in there and everything else. And it was two ladies that had set it up and all the, all the team leads were all ladies. And they survived to this point by emotionally led decisions because that was what they did. All right. They were, were they really business focused? I don't know. When I came in, of course, and said, why the heck are we doing that? That makes no sense from a business perspective. It's costing you money or it's not delivering the value or whatever. Um, and you had to try and change it. It was incredibly difficult. It really was incredibly difficult. They managed their workforce by bribing them in many ways emotionally rather than. Uh, so first thing I did was fired everybody and then re employed them under new conditions. So we changed their work conditions because that was the only way. And they loved it. It was all great because now they had things contained. But the ladies that would run the company before, and they were the major shareholders, it was their company, one of them particularly. But, uh, their own stubbornness and everything else came into play. So it really was very, very difficult. But it was one of those steps for me. So it was a step from a manager to a director role. And I lasted six months. I eventually went, this is ridiculous. I can't do this anymore because I Couldn't deliver value. Um, I couldn't get them to think in a different way, which is what I was trying to get in there. And things like their accountant and their finance support team and everything else, they're going good. We've got somebody in with some M experience around this, but it just couldn't. The company lasted another two years or something like that. So it's difficult. So you have to learn to walk away and when not to walk away.

>> Steve: Yes.

>> Anouk: And I learned from that experience, of course, of knowing that don't get excited by the job, even though I knew many of them were there. Uh, I'd known the company for a while. Uh, but it was an interesting process. And I think you have to always put yourself in a position where you can grow.

>> Steve: Yes.

>> Anouk: And. And if you aren't growing, then potentially you need to think about how I can change the scenario around me or how I change the environment around me.

>> Steve: Yes.

>> Anouk: It's the same with any other kind of gone.

>> Steve: You made a very good example as well. They let everything by emotions and how they feel.

>> Anouk: Yeah.

>> Steve: That's not how you need to do it. That's not how you become good at things or how you become a team leader or manager or what else.

>> Anouk: Agreed. Agreed. I think it had got them so far because that same emotional drive got them through the startup stages of it, but couldn't get it through the maintenance stages of it. Um, and, uh, uh, it's very valid. And I think the same is for anything else. If we talk about collaboration, if we talk about, um, change or adoption, those kinds of things, you've got to have a fairly solid framework around it. Um, and then you need to slot the right people into that framework. So to find out how they do things and what they do. Cool. There you go. Superpowers.

>> Steve: Yes.

>> Anouk: Folks, when you're listening, write it down. Now get a pen and paper, write down your superpower, and find out how you want to use it. And then write for. Write down the superpower that you wish you could have and work out how you manage without it, because that's also superpower true. There we go. So that was my idea. So maybe if it's a good idea, we'll do a podcast on it.

>> Steve: We just did.

>> Anouk: Oh, damn. My superpower is doing things without even knowing I'm doing it.

>> Steve: Oh, you dumb. You know what you are doing.

>> Anouk: Oh, well, it's all part of the fun. So this is fusion talk. Um, and we're glad you've been listening. It's always an odd kind of subjects that we touch on in terms of business and people and all that kind of stuff. Um, and, uh, every so often we might talk about things like, uh, AI or some other kind of boring subject, but developing tattoos. It is. It is. So we hope you found it useful. We hope we provoked a few ideas.

>> Steve: I think we did.

>> Anouk: Good. All right. Until next time, it's bye from me.

>> Steve: And bye from me. Sa.